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information bleg: liberty ammunition

So no one in my RSS feeds have mentioned them in recent history and I asked the great Twitterverse this same question and got only a single response, so here we are:

Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge of Liberty Ammunition?

My father and I are both intrigued by their claims that they can launch a solid-copper, hollow-point, 76 grain .45 ACP round at 1900 feet-per-second and generate around 600 foot-pounds of force – the numbers work out (actually, it would generate around 625 foot-pounds of force, but we will spot them the difference), but I am curious if their cartridge can actually achieve the claims, given that they are better than most .45ACP cartridges’ claims on the market these days.

Their 9mm claims are not quite so optimistic (50 grains, 2000 fps (holy crap!), and 450 foot-pounds), but still respectable if legitimate.

Unfortunately, this stuff is not cheap – $29 for .45 ACP and $24 for 9mm, and that is for a box of 20 – and I lack a chronometer, so I am disinclined to try to test it myself, but it certainly sounds impressive. So, does anyone have any kind of actual experience with them?

19 comments to information bleg: liberty ammunition

  • I have a chrony and scales. If I can I’ll buy a box and test it.

    I hate to ask for T&E on ammo since I can’t exactly return it. But I’d be more than happy to run a box through my 5″ 1911 and see how it behaves.

    I’d actually probably run a few rounds through my 4″ XD and see if that cycles correctly. Chronograph would be with the 5″ because the longer barrel will give it the better chance.

  • Lazy Bike Commuter

    They might get the numbers they are saying, but I think I will stick with Rangers and Gold Dots until I see third-party gelatinous tests by experts that show a good reason to switch.

  • I have a chrony too and would be willing to launch it out a 16″ barrel with the KRISS. But unlike Barron, I ain’t buyin’ any. They’re more than happy to send me a few boxes to test though ;)

  • I wonder how fast these puppies would be moving when fired from a pistol-caliber carbine….

  • “effective range: 25m”?

  • @ Robb Allen:
    I said I might. Try for the T&E Robb, you might save me some money. Hell I might ask too cause it never hurts. If I do I’m gonna get some gel too.

  • Sounds like yet another ‘velocity-is-everything’ round. I want to know how well it penetrates. Many ultra-light bullets dump all their energy in the first few inches of travel, and don’t get deep enough to affect vital organs. The only HV round that worked in my personal experience was hollowed out, and cut a cylindrical hole into the flesh, thereby getting deeper than conventional bullets. That was Geco’s BAT round:

    http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogEntry.aspx?id=2111&cid=25

    That worked pretty well ‘on the street’. I saw the results.

  • @ Barron Barnett: We would certainly appreciate you running it through its paces… though, be advised about the +P requirement – not sure if 1911s are generally rated for that. My father plans on running it through his H&K45.

    @ Lazy Bike Commuter: I am just curious if it can do what they say it can. Obviously lethality testing would have to take place, but, if nothing else, given its damned-near frangible nature, you are pretty much guaranteed 100% energy transference.

    @ Robb Allen: If you can talk them out of it, that would certainly work :).

    @ AuricTech: That is where the KRISS comes in… I guess the result is “pretty damned zippy”.

    @ John Hardin: Light bullet, maybe? Probably has a completely crappy ballistic coefficient, so I would guess that has something to do with it.

    @ Peter: These days, I dunno about how wounds work any more – have you seen the Silly Putty Slug video for shotguns? The “round” functionally disintegrated as soon as it hit the 12″ clay cube they were shooting at, but the entire cube pretty much peeled apart. Not sure if it would be lethal or not, but I would not want to be on the receiving end of the resulting shock :).

  • Personally In Weer’d Beard Philosophy of Terminal ballistics muzzle energy is not the end-all-be-all (tho the 2000fps 9×19, if properly advertised MIGHT have some added advantages of the crazy hydrostatic shock seen in rifle bullets….tho still the bullets are fairly round compared to rifle projectiles so maybe that won’t play out in-vivo)

    I’m a HUGE proponent in bullet WEIGHT! You still need energy to do all the work, but lighter bullets act VERY chaotically in the mixed medium that is found in a living target. Living bodies are ballistics gel. Ballistics gel is an AVERAGE of living bodies. You’ll have low density fluid and air spaces, and high density Bone, with muscles and tendons in between. A light bullet is more likely to deflect when it hits something hard, and let’s face it GOOD hits are going to hit serious bone first before it gets to vitals (ie Ribs and skull which are both close to the surface protecting the vitals) I’m more concerned about a good shot going sour from hitting bone BEFORE it gets to the organs that will stop a fight.

    When it comes to .45 ACP, I’m a 230 grain or bust sort of guy, as those weight are more likely to smash through bone and continue on a straight trajectory than lighter bullets.

    Of course we’re still talking chaos your YMMV…

  • @ Robb Allen:

    Rob doesn’t actually care about the ammo, he just wants to remind everyone he got a KRISS. ;)

  • Duane

    google PMC Ultramag or cyclone bullets. If I recall correctly they came out in the early 90′s.

  • Linoge wrote:

    @ Barron Barnett: We would certainly appreciate you running it through its paces… though, be advised about the +P requirement – not sure if 1911s are generally rated for that. My father plans on running it through his H&K45.

    @ AuricTech: That is where the KRISS comes in… I guess the result is “pretty damned zippy”.

    KRISS testing, while valuable, wouldn’t help me find out how fast the 9x19mm would zip out of my Cx4 Storm carbine. ;-)

    Unfortunately, the Cx4 Storm Instruction Manual includes a warning that “(t)he extended use of +P, +P+ ammunition may decrease the minor components (sic) service life expectancy,” which puts a minor damper on things. :-( That being said, I would imagine that running a couple of magazines of Liberty Ammunition’s product through my Cx4 would hardly qualify as “extended use of +P” ammunition. :-D

    All I need now is some of this ammo, a decent chronograph, and either ballistics gelatin or plenty of 1-gallon water jugs and associated infrastructure….

  • @ Weer’d Beard: I think you are more a fan of something called “sectional density” :), or, in the long-range world, “ballistic coefficient”, with the premise being the more-dense bullet will penetrate farther than the lighter one (duh). There are, of course, limits to that utility – if you saboted a .223 round out of a 12gauge, it would probably disappear through multiple feet of ballistics gel, if not just explode – but there is a fair argument to be made for it.

    By the same token, though, a 7.62×25 round is about 5% less dense and 20% faster than your average 9mm round, and the former can do things the latter can only dream of. In the end, I have no idea what The Right Answer is, which is why we try new things to find out :).

    @ Bob Owens: Would you not?

    @ Duane: Ultramags were apparently bizarre bottomless hollowpoints that were supposed to cut out a tube of their target, and the same for the Cyclone. Wierd. The ones I am talking about are functionally hollow-points that have a tendency to apparently fragment, rather than go tube-cutting.

  • While I do hope someone with a KRISS does test this ammo, the test data wouldn’t help me determine whether it’s a worthwhile load for my 9mm Cx4 Storm carbine. ;-)

    Maybe it’s about time for me to invest in a chronograph, plenty of 1-gallon water jugs and a few boxes of Liberty Ammunition’s 9mm rounds. While Beretta does state in the Cx4 Storm Information Manual that “(t)he extended use of +P, +P+ (sic) ammunition may decrease the minor components (sic) life expectancy,” I don’t think that under 100 rounds of this ammunition could be considered “extended use.”

  • Hmmm. That’s two of my comments on this thread that have gone missing.

    Reader’s Digest version: I’m interested in seeing how the 9mm Liberty Ammunition rounds perform from a carbine. Perhaps I should test it myself.

  • @ AuricTech: You have to let me know when that happens; I can save them, you know :P. Not sure what it was about those comments, but both were categorized as spam by the automatic system.

    And, hey, if you want to shoot stuff in the name of science, I surely am not going to get in your way!

  • Looking purely at empirical results, super light pistol bullets tend to perform poorly for stopping. Not enough penetration, a tendency to deflect off the lightest intermediate barriers. Super heavy bullets work fine provided a certain base velocity is achieved (about 700fps or so). A 200gr 38S&W bullet is too slow at 600fps, but the same in a .357Mag case at 1200fps works better than a 125gr going 1600fps. the use of lighter bullets for defense is bases as much on reducing the muzzle flip and recoil as on the expected effectiveness.

  • @ Oleg Volk: Honestly, the recoil factor is why father is interested. If they are marginally less effective against targets, but you can get back on target faster and be more accurate, I can understand where the tradeoff would be.

    @ Duane: I do not think the actual duplex rounds are pulling that kind of speed – the company making the duplexes seem to have created a super-light, super-fast round in addition (I guess they just use the front round of their duplex loading and omit the secondary lead ball).



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