Officer Matt Lyons, you are a credit to the Oceanside Police Department, and I would like to thank you for your courteous, professional, and responsible handling of a California resident recently unloaded-open-carrying.
On a somewhat related note, I, personally, have no problems with identifying myself to police officers, just like I have no problems with people not identifying themselves to police officers (so long as that action is lawful in their respective states/towns). Tennessee, so far as I know, is not a “stop and identify” state, but if police officers have reasonable suspicion that you are violating some law/ordinance (such as, in the case of this open carrier, openly carrying a loaded firearm (illegal in California without a permit)), you are legally obligated to provide identification (though I am not sure if a driver’s license is required so long as the law you are breaking does not have to do with vehicles). As always, I am not a lawyer, and it is incumbent upon you to know the laws in your area.
Thankfully, my one run-in with the Knoxville Police Department while openly carrying followed much the same script, though having just been involved in an accident, there were, of course, some differences.
In the end, there is absolutely no excuse for anything other than courteous, polite, and responsible behavior on both sides of a police interaction, and while California’s laws may (and do) suck, the time to work on changing them is not while a few police officers are attempting to ascertain whether or not you are breaking those laws. Likewise, open carry can and does provide an educational opportunity for all persons involved and observing, and a priceless ability to normalize the concept of law-abiding citizens peacefully and lawfully exercising their Constitutionally-protected, individual rights (namely, self-defense). The very notion that the only way to exercise one’s rights is by carrying an unloaded firearm with the assumption that you will be constantly challenged by your fellow citizens and police officers is patently ludicrous, but it is only through efforts like these that that situation is going to change.
And on a mostly unrelated note, for those interested, Officer Lyons wrote a book about the Oceanside Police Department
(Courtesy of Say Uncle.)
That is awesome! We need many many more cops just like him.
To be fair, he was a bit confrontational with the open carrier, but something tells me that is the unofficial policy for Kalifornistan… However, given the state in question, his handling of the situation could have been significantly worse, and I definitely appreciate that he was so calm, rational, and polite.
“Tennessee, so far as I know, is not a “stop and identify” state, but if police officers have reasonable suspicion that you are violating some law/ordinance (such as, in the case of this open carrier, openly carrying a loaded firearm (illegal in California without a permit)), you are legally obligated to provide identification (though I am not sure if a driver’s license is required so long as the law you are breaking does not have to do with vehicles).”
Mutually exclusive. Without a specific S&I statute (which it seem syou are correct about Tennessee not having), you are not ‘required’ to provide anything…even if ‘detained’ (Terry stopped) for investigation. As ruled by SCOTUS in Hiible, any S&I statute MUST be clear in it’s requirements, and cannot provide for random stops. All stops MUST be based on ‘Reasonable Articulable Suspicion’ has been, is being, or is about to be committed in order for a S&I statute to not violate the fourth.
Hm. In that case, I have no idea… My information comes of a lot of other people saying they do not know either, so my general rule of thumb (in addition to my usual rule of trying to avoid giving legal advice, which I seem to have ignored at my peril in this case) is to just identify myself if someone asks, and call it a day. Seems simpler that way – one of those, “you may be right, but it will cost a fortune to prove” kind of things…
One interesting thing about NJ, tangentially related, is that requests for consent to search (absent RAS) is flat unconstitutional under the NJ constitution, per our courts.
At a traffic stop or on the road in general, I should have added.
phssthpok: (man thats hard to type! heh)
While TN does not have an S&I rule, Carrying a firearm is illegal in TN. Having a permit is a defense against the charge of carrying a firearm with the intent to go armed. So, an officer in TN sees you carrying he immediately has RAS. In my interactions, I produced my permit, they called it in to comfirm that it was still valid, and I was on my way. No muss, no fuss.
Regards,
Pol
Pol Mordreth: (I usually highlight/copy/paste hard to type things)
The problem *I* personally have with that scenario is that it’s illegal to drive a car in Tennessee without a license too, but it’s been held to be an unlawful infringement on the fourth to pull someone over SOLELY because they are driving in order to confirm that they have a license.
Applied to the open carry of a sidearm, unless and until there is reason to believe one is *NOT* licensed, the presumption should be that they ARE, and the threshold for investigatory stops should be similar.
Of course this means you’d see an increase in BS ‘you were wandering inside your lane’ type stops….but still…at least they’d be PRETENDING to follow the law.
Do you really mean OC in california is illegal?
@ Ian Argent: Damn. Might just be the only redeeming factor for that state
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@ chris: Unloaded open carry is legal in most/all of Kalifornistan, so far as I know, but I would not trust me to be up-to-date on all the laws in all of the various specific localities.
And, yeah, unloaded open carry is damned useless for most situations, but it surely beats a pointy stick.
The weather’s OK, the gas prices low, and outside of some hellholes the scenery is nice as well.
‘Side from the gas prices, that could describe Kalifornistan too… does not mean I am moving back. Ever.