Electric vehicles will save us!
Electric vehicles will save the environment!
Electric vehicles are the next Big Thing!
…
Conceptually, I want to like electric vehicles – despite the energy having to be produced somewhere, they are generally more efficient… The problem, however, is our means of storing that energy frankly suck. Like “jumpstart a Hoover” suck. Like “get you stranded while you look for an outlet” suck. There are some exceptions – like a slick-looking electric motorcycle that asks where you are going and adjusts your performance capabilities based on the distance, or a street-legal glorified golf-cart that stripped its weight to the bare minimum to juice every foot out of those batteries – but until we figure out a better way to store, and safely release, more energy, purely-electric vehicles are going to be scant more than toys for those who can afford them.
Another big barrier to pure electric vehicles is charging time. Until I can charge the batteries(capacitors, etc.) to a level significantly above “get me home” in the same time it take to fill a gas tank, they will remain inferior to conventional or hybrid vehicles for most applications.
That being said, I like that electric motorcycle. I did actually consider building something like that when I was younger, but I didn’t have the money or time to do it (which is sad, because I did have the ability to learn what I needed to do it, and a mechanic and engineer father who would have been excited to help out). It would have fit my local commuting needs very well, and I would have had a conventional car for my other needs.
Since my first training was as a chemist, I would like to confirm that the technology and economic realities for purely electric cars is not there yet. If we ever perfect a dirt-cheap electrical energy source, say nuclear fission or nuclear fusion, then the electrolysis of water into oxygen and hydrogen for fuel-cell cars then is feasible.
We have seen a lot of battery improvements in the recent past, but our demand for long ranges and short “refuel/recharge” times in our society makes electric cars look silly.
We must go with the proven gasoline internal combustion engine until further notice.
Ooooo! I can’t wait to see that episode of Tog Gear…
So, why can’t they just put a gas generator in the trunk?
@Braden Lynch
I’ll bet $20 if someone implements nuclear fission or fusion into a car’s energy source, it’ll take no longer than a half hour for someone to start panicking “OMG, WE’RE DRIVING NUCLEAR BOMBS!!11!”
Just my thoughts.
@the Dude:
We can already incorporate nuclear power into a car’s energy source – nothing says that we have to carry it with us.
Use nuclear power plants – LOTS of BIG ones. (Don’t build them on the coast in earthquake zones.)
Use the excess generation capacity to electrolyse water to Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Claim green credits for a) zero Carbon Dioxide emissions and b) positive Oxygen emissions.
Carry the Hydrogen to run fuel cells in electric cars.
Claim green credits for zero emission vehicles.
@ the Dude:
Sorry, let me clarify. I’m not talking about nuclear-powered cars. I meant nuclear energy at a distant power plant to provide cheap electricity for the splitting of water into oxygen and hydrogen. They can be combined to produce power for the car. Think of the Apollo moon missions. See reply by Sendarius also.
I have been enamored with the idea of electric bicycles. There is a convenient solution the “what to do when you run our of juice” quandary of pure electrics, and you can solve the awkward “shower at work” problem by motoring in the morning and peddling home for the exercise. The non-starter for me is the pathetic 15mph top speeds I see quoted, which maybe because of licensing laws and what officially constitutes a motorized vehicle. Jerry rigging a 25mph/20 mile range one would be interesting.
I have never understood the affection that some people profess for Hydrogen as a fuel, and can only assume that they have either never worked with it and/or seriously looked at the problems involved. It leaks through EVERYTHING, it leaks through the steel or glass walls of storage containers or any other material you try to store it in. If this wasn’t bad enough, by migrating through the material, it weakens it, plan on replacing your storage container and high pressure piping every 5 years or so. T store it in any kind of reasonable space requires extremely high pressures and/or extremely low temperatures. I do NOT want to share the road with a Kamikaze riding a 10,000 psi bomb or a -260 Degree Fahrenheit Insta-Freeze. The amount of energy used to store it either by compressing it or cooling it very nearly equals it’s energy content, you’d be better off charging batteries. It is Flammable and Explosive over an insane concentration range and it only take 1/10th the energy to light it off as a gasoline/air mixture takes.
I can go on like this for HOURS on Hydrogen. Bad Idea.
100% agree. The energy density and “fill time” problems of electric vehicles are not solved yet. And +1 to Wildman7316 on hydrogen. Yikes.
Too bad electrical storage isn’t sexy – we could really, really use some help on that front. All portable electronics would benefit! I heard rumblings of a capacitor track that was promising, but like all things close to the green washer, I haven’t heard anything after the breathless early mentions. It probably ran on water and the oil companies had them assassinated. Or something.
@ Wildman7316:
Definitely a very scary set of conditions to make hydrogen fuel cells work. It is my basic understanding that some scientists smarter than me were looking into an adsorbed surface storage medium for the hydrogen (maybe it was a graphite matrix or something; sorry can’t remember) whereby the hydrogen did not have to be liquified. I think it fell into the “breathless early mention” category though. Not ready for the real world. Quite simply, electric cars do not live up to even a set of minimal expectations and game-changing improvements are not here yet.
Noting the liquid hydrogen issues you detailed, I know I would not want to look like the T-1000 in Terminator 2 with liquid hydrogen splashed all about for a quick freeze death.
I would love to see a bunch of new, standardized, nuclear fission plants operating and have cheap, plentiful electricity. The benefits are immense. However, fossil fuels are still economical, entrenched, and the way to go for the near and probably semi-distant future. Drill, baby, drill!
@ Jake: Also another good point, though some companies (I believe in Europe) have “solved” the problem by pioneering a battery charging station that also simply removes the entire battery pack from the undercarriage of your car and replaces it with another. I could see definite benefits and downfalls of that particular idea…
And the bike’s implementation is pretty cool, especially with the GPS system modifying your capabilities based on distance – if all electric vehicles had that, I think they would be significantly better received.
@ Braden Lynch: As others have said, I have some rather significant doubts about the efficacy of fuel cells as a long-term (or even safe short-term) energy storage solution, but there sure as hell are not any other better alternatives given the efficacy of even the most recent and advanced battery packs. But, hell, Mother Nature gave us a perfectly useful energy storage system – who am I to question her?
@ bluesun: If it was anything like the Tesla one, it might be entertaining…
@ Rustmeister: The Volt does. The Leaf was meant to be all-electric from the ground up.
@ TS: For city folks, I can definitely see the utility of that, and things like the Arcimoto… but for us ‘burbs, and especially rural, residents… yeah, no way.
@ Wildman7316: Something tells me you have some prior experience with playing with that particular element…
@ aczarnowski: I too seem to remember an idea of using sequential capacitors as a way of providing a constant energy stream, but damned if I can remember where… Saurium Krellide, all the way!
As is probably painfully obvious, I’m in the biz, and because I get tired of re-writing copy *many many* times, I’m going to refer you to the company website – http://mcelectricvehicles.com …and specifically suggest clicking on “batteries” and scrolling down to the lithium upgrade packs *for the old 72v last-gen NEV’s*.
That done, I’ll attempt to address some of the issues brought to the table. First off, huge progress has been made (thank goodness) in the battery arena as the industry is *finally* shifting away from lead-acid in all its various exotic forms in favor of modern (not the 1st-Gen Spontaneous Combustion model)lithium battery packs – with active battery management and intelligent charging. This is allowing current production cars, motorcycles, and scooters to get ranges (i.e., different pack = different range) from 58-90 miles at freeway speeds.
Those ranges still leave the EV bike/scooter/motorcycle of today as a niche tool. Just as one probably wouldn’t use a Mercedes MOG as the preferred commuter rig in crowded urban conditons (at a minimum, parking would be a special little slice of hell), taking the current generation of EV’s as the ultimate SUV or Cruising Bike isn’t going to make great wads of sense either.
I’ve ridden the Zero line of motorcycles fairly extensively at this point, and at price points from $7,995-$10,995 they offer a decent commuter bike and off-road bike (that doesn’t peeve the neighbors w/ noise needlessly) – my main experience has been on the Model S street bike, and it rides about like a 250cc bike with a 3-4 hour standard charge time and a 1-2hr charge time using the Quick Charge option.
I’m not a small guy, so I’m not a huge fan of scooters of any description. That said, my experience of the G5 and G6 scooters (riding chase on test rides of Zero’s)has been positive, as well as road exposure marketing efforts. The scooters get up to and maintain rated speed, even with a heavy-set 6′+ rider on board.
The Wheego LiFe is the current freeway speed coupe we carry – charge time (on 220v/30a) 8-12 hours, with a 90 mi range and 67mph top speed. I’ve had it up on I-5, at freeway speeds, and found it to be a reliable hill climber in the Seattle environment. For an urban environment commuter, I like it better than the Nissan Leaf (not only do I sell it, but a shorter turning radius means paralell parking sucks less), and I’m not a huge fan of the EV Ford Transit for the retail market, though I think the EV Ford Focus may hold promise.
And all of the above is flying with Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries from companies such as Thundersky, Calb, and Flux. Lithium Polymer is the next promising leap forward on the horizon that *may* get EV’s beyond the “commuter car” range-imposed niche, and up there with the rather more awe-inspiring range the Tesla Roadster offers. But that’s a year or so out.
Regarding Electric Bicycles, TS, talk to me. Perhaps *after* you click on our line of 750 watt and 1000 watt e-bikes . The E+ line sounds about like what you’re looking for, and while they aren’t cheap…if they can haul my less than svelte person from Seattle’s SODO up to West Seattle…I suspect they will meet your needs. Would 25-35mph and 40 miles of range w/ moderate pedaling w/ a quick detach battery that you can charge at your desk meet your needs?
This is one topic that I’m happy to answer questions on, and anything I can’t answer – I’m humble enough to hand you off to the folks higher up the tech food chain.
Now, if the weather would just figure out that *summer* concept, I could ride that Zero S to work a little more often.
Ray, thanks for stopping by and voluntarily wading into this hatefest on electric vehicles, and doubly thanks for being forthright and honest about your affiliations.
Regarding your mentioning the battery upgrades, am I reading it right that the smaller batteries have to be replaced every 65k miles assuming you require an average of 80% output from them?
Speaking personally, my problem with electric vehicles is that my commute is about 17 miles one-way for two people on roads that typically require somewhere around 70mph to navigate safely (though damned if folks do not try to merge at all of 40… *sigh*). With that set of constraints imposed, by and large, either I will be forced to charge the vehicle at work or not run errands on our way home (something we frequently do), or it simply will not be possible at all, given the speed requirements – especially given how pure-EVs are typically some of the smaller vehicles on the road (in other words, I do not want to be the slow soon-to-be-smear). Your LiFe unit seems to be an exception to that problem, but raises a separate one – all of my 220V equipment is on the far side of the house from the garage, and dragging that line over would be a pain in the tushie.
Believe me, I am honest when I say I want to like the technology – the idea of an infinite torque motor (at zero RPM) of course appeals to the motorhead in me. But for most folks outside of an urban environment, the utility is just not there. Yet. I certainly will not deny that it is coming, but lots of things have been coming for a while
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@ Linoge:
Thank you for your kind words. That’s *my* problem with EV’s (even the Wheego/Leaf/Transit), that they remain a niche product best suited to an urban or suburban environment if they are in an affordable package (yes, Tesla Roadster is MOST cool w/ a range of 250 miles and mind-boggling acceleration. The price makes me very sad.).
Personally? For what I spend on gas in a year, I don’t have a hard time with the notion of coughing up substantially less to drag a 220/30 line – it’s a pain that saves me $$.
But that’s me, and part of my motivation is a desire to make my tiny effort to put the hurt on the largely hostile oil producing nations (well, Canada is kind of the exception, but you get my drift).
The smaller battery packages are less spiffy – but are HUGELY more spiffy than the lead-acid’s they are replacing that typically saw time-to-replacement of between 300-500 charge cycles with a 20-30 mile range. Think if coughing up $2300 every couple of years. This may hint at my enthusiasm for Lith conversions on the older rigs, even the dinkier lith packages – I’m not QUITE at the point of using the wisdom stick to encourage customers to make the swap, but there are days that I’m tempted.
And cough up $350 more for the next pack up, and that 70ah/64,800 turns into 90ah/97,200. The NEV’s are far more limited in their utility, of course, than the new Full Speed EV’s.
Lazy sort that I am, for illustrative purposes I’ll borrow my own example from the company website:
Example: A Zenn, with AC Motor, and lead acid batteries will – at 20 miles/charge (more is possible, but we’re being conservative here) get about 6,000 miles per battery pack (avg cost $2,317.36 in lead-acid). The same car converted to a basic lithium pack (31.5 miles range, installed) at a conversion cost $7,100.00 will, per the battery suppliers, run about 66,150 miles to reduce range to 70% (18.74 miles) of installed range, a point where most owners would feel an upgrade or replacement was appropriate.
With the above example in mind, it works out that the cost per mile of lead-acid vs. lithium leaves us with a lead-acid battery cost of .39/mile (assuming 300 cycles) compared to .11/mile in lithium – or if we run the vehicle to 66,150 miles, all other variables being equal, we see a battery cost of $25,798.50 in lead-acid battery packs compared to a $7,100 battery cost in lithium.
Hope that’s helpful. Back to chatting about guns and politics under my nom de guerre.
Ahah! I was wondering about that last part…
Well, the other part of what I pay for gasoline every year is less the actual transportation from point A to point B, and more the enjoyment of doing so. Until such time as EV companies produce something at an equivalent price point (just to get rid of the Tesla) that can perform as well as my Mustang Bullitt, I will be hard-pressed to give up those wheels, even if I could save money to do so – “enjoyment” has alwas been an acceptable reason to spend money
.
Still, something like that Arcimoto is awfully tempting… $20k for something that a couple could almost road-trip in is getting close to what I am wanting out of vehicles like that, and its looks and design certainly do not hurt it any.