Despite having written somewhat prolifically on the topic, I have only ever carried two models of firearms in public – the Beretta M9 when I was standing quarterdeck watches in the Navy, and my current Walther PPS. While I was in the military, the condition at which I carried the firearm was dictated by my commanding officer and the limitations of the platform – for most of the time I carried in Condition Two, but my last CO dictated Condition Three. Now, how I carry is purely dependent upon my own personal choices… and the limitations of the hardware again – given that the Walther PPS has no manual safety, and given that “hammer down” is not really an option for it, I guess I carry at Condition 1.5 (though a valid argument could be made for my carrying at Condition One, given that a round is chambered, a full magazine is inserted, the hammer is (half-)cocked, and all three safeties (drop, striker, and trigger) are engaged).
Unfortunately, none of that helps me answer this question, posed by Dennis of Dragon Leatherworks (the gentleman who crafted the amazing holster for my new SSR), because I have no experience with 1911s:
Now…I’m looking to make a 1911-specific holster. Not sure if I’m going to go the route of exotic skins or not yet, but what I need to know is your opinions (along with the opinions of your readers, if you’re so inclined) on if a 1911 specific holster must have a thumb break, so as to allow the gun to be carried in Condition 1. (My understanding is that DefCon 1 is cocked, safety locked, live round in the pipe…feel free to correct me if I have it backwards…)
Personally, I don’t carry with one in the pipe if the gun is SA only. On the sidearms I have that are DA/SA, I will chamber a round, then drop the hammer and keep the safety on.
So there’s the question for you guys…I’m fleshing out a design that is a hybrid of the Flatjack and the Snakebite, made only for the 1911, and the thumbbreak question is one that I need to resolve.
Any help that you can collectively offer would be greatly appreciated!
If given the option, I would carry a 1911 in Condition 1, on the premise that discharging the firearm would require the active disengaging of two separate safeties – the grip, and the actual switch. That said, personally, I would not want a thumbbreak.
Why? None of my other holsters have one, and I do not want to be mucking around with a seatbelt for my heater when said firearm’s presence is being immediately requested – basically, commonality of training/practice (which is also a reason I might never actually carry a 1911, but that is another topic for another post). Likewise, what purpose is the thumbbreak serving? Any good holsters can retain a firearm without the need of a strap (and Dennis’ holsters are that good), and using the strap to block off the hammer from falling would imply the relatively high likelihood of at least three simultaneous mechanical failures in your firearm… not sure I would carry something that prone to breaking. (And has anyone actually heard of 1911s going off spontaneously in their holsters? I mean, it is not like they are Glocks… *cough*) I cannot really speak as to how thumbbreaks affect draw speed, given my military holster had the “rotate-out-of-the-way”, non-snap style strap, but I would imagine that also comes into play.
So my vote is “no”, but I am writing as someone who has very limited experience with both 1911s and thumbbreaks – Jay G.’s take on them may be a bit more… experienced-based.
What say you?
(General reminder for those who have forgotten – firearm Conditions are as follows:
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
)
Most of my 1911 holsters don’t have a thumb break. No need for most uses. I don’t feel a thumb break holster makes it any safer… as long as your thumb safety is engaged, the hammer can not fall, it’s physically impossible unless your gun is out of spec.
However, I do like thumb break holsters for most of my summer use, because I open carry and get around almost exclusively on my motorcycle. I like the peace of mind that my pistol isn’t going to somehow end up skittering down the road, and the extra bit of protection from someone trying to grab my gun.
Some poorly designed thumb break holsters have a tendency to knock the safety off, actually, like my Bianchi Black Widow. My Galco FLETCH doesn’t knock the safety off, but it’s not difficult to accidentally remove the safety when snapping the thumb break closed. So I have to snap it shut, then make sure the safety is still engaged. Kind of a pain in the ass.
Why not just offer the holsters normally without a thumb break, with the option of adding one for an extra $25-30 or so?
Thumb breaks are for retention, not safety, so there’s really nothing 1911-specific about them. If you’re worried about a gun-grab, get a thumb break. You can pretty much read that as “if you’re a cop”. The only other time they’re useful is in a shoulder holster.
A cocked and locked 1911 is not going to go off by itself. Adding a thumb break might catch a falling hammer… but the hammer will only fall if the thumb safety is disengaged, the grip safety is pressed, and the trigger pulled. Not something that keeps me up at night.
The only feature that I’d advise for 1911 carriers is a sweat shield with molded thumb safety ridge, just to avoid the possibility of your movement unintentionally deactivating the thumb safety. It’s only happened to me once, carrying IWB, and I was still safer than your average Glock or revolver carrier: covered trigger guard, grip safety, and a 4lb trigger pull between me and a loud noise.
Did somebody say 1911s?
I’m an unrepentant 1911 snob, and carry them regularly. Here’s my take:
Almost all people who carry the 1911 platform in the modern age carry cocked-and-locked, in condition 1. Condition 2 is just unsafe due to lowering the hammer on a live round, just like an old-style single-action revolver. Racking the slide requires two hands, and on a small tight-fitted 1911 with a hard-edged firing pin stop, is, frankly, a little difficult with the hammer down, so Condition 3 is a no-go. So Condition 1 it is.
What does this say about thumb-breaks? Nothing. Thumb-breaks have a nasty habbit of become caught in trigger-guards, on safety levers, in a user’s grip on a draw, and otherwise in places they shouldn’t be. On a CCW holster, no thumb break is needed, and I recommended against.
What is needed is adequate retention. An OWB holster for a 1911 really should hold the pistol upside-down, as high-end carry 1911 are typically not drop-safe.
Also needed is sufficient protection for both the trigger and the thumb safety. Weird-shaped holsers, I suspect, may have trouble protecting the thumb safety and trigger as much as I’d like.
From the photos of Weer’d's Flatjack, it looks like the thumb safety is not covered. That’s actually fine for many people (take, for example, the popularity of the yaqui slide style) but isn’t my cup of tea. For an IWB holster, it’s even more no-go because the safety will dig into your side.
Then again, on a presentation holster that people will be using to open carry, a thumb break might be fine. Drawing speed may not be as important to you. You may want the extra retention, or to re-assure uncomfortable people who see it. I don’t know. Open Carry in presentation holsters really isn’t something I do. Maybe optional, like Weambulance said
One last nit: for the hammer to drop on a Series 70 1911 only requires the sear-points to break catastrophically, and for the half-cock notch to not catch the broken sear. This basically never happens, but it doesn’t require the sort of mechanical impossibility as a modern design does.
Well, like I said over at Jay’s, I would carry in Condition 1, since that’s what it’s designed for. I would go with a thumb-break strap or other retention supplement for open carry, to provide protection from gun-grabs or accidental snags. I would not want a strap for concealed carry – it’s one more thing to get out of the way after clearing your cover garment, and the cover garment should provide sufficient protection against grabs and snags that the strap would be superfluous.
I don’t like thumb breaks. It’s all concealed carry here in Texas for now so, like Jake wrote, it’s just one more step in the drawing process. My 1911′s concealed and I carry it in a good holster (Dennis made it for me, incidentally), so I’m not worried about it moving, falling out, being grabbed, etc. – no need for a thumb break.
Condition One’s fine without a thumb break because the thumb and grip safeties are present and, more importantly, my brain’s engaged when I’m carrying. I’m still new enough to CC that I’m not always aware of the fact that I’m carrying a firearm, but I do still consciously consider everything that I’m doing when I handle a gun. (Paranoia? Nope. I just like my right leg and foot the way God made ‘em, without my alterations.)
Thanks, everyone, for your inputs
. I will forward this thread on to Dennis, and we will see what he ends up creating!
BTW, does the striker get charged on the PPS when the trigger is pulled? I thought the trigger was much like that of the XD, as simply a very squishy singe-action.
So the PPS could be considered Condition 1 if you count the trigger fungly (proper technical term) as a manual safety. Or 0.5 if you count the trigger slack.
The PPS operates on the “half-cock” system made mainstream by Glock, I suppose, so it is really “in the middle”.